Hey MWodies,
Today’s mission is to make the link between what is going on with someone structurally and how they move. In this case, we are talking about one of the causes of the dreaded turned out feet in the squat (squat duck feet syndrome disorder or sdfsd for short). Many of us have to turn our feet out when we squat because we have crappy hip range of motion. As my wife Jstar will tell you, “make a better decision”. Try to get in the habit of watching people move and trying to understand WHY they move that way. How’d you tear your ACL? I don’t know. I just jumped down from this volleyball net and landed like a duck. Weird. Make a better decision. Movement is the purpose, stimulus, diagnostic, and solution.
Test/Retest: Dynamic Squat, like wall ball, jumping squat, receiving position in full clean etc.
K-I-See-You-star
37 Responses to “Episode 230/365: Squatting With Turned Out Feet? Hey Duck Squatter, IR Yourself.”
Trackbacks/Pingbacks
- Workout #22 « OGFitness
- Tuesday |
- The Rumble Roller: Get your roll on | Fitness Town Health and Fitness Blog
- Monday |
- More Mobility | The Fit Lively Guy
- Thursday January 5th, 2012 | Core CrossFit Downtown Phoenix Arizona
- Squat form question | Mark's Daily Apple Health and Fitness Forum page
- Tue, Mar 6th | CrossFit Ireland
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Skull bell?!! That may be the coolest thing I have ever seen. Just when I thought you couldn’t be any more basses, you unveil that bad boy!
Where did you find such a cool kettlebell?
I’ve been waiting for this video explanation; when I see a toes forward squat I see abduction, flexion and IR of the hip. Any ER seems to be isometric tension “virtual torque” as a result of stabilizing the IR. So now, why does everyone from USAW to NSCA to Pavel Tsatsouline to Gray Cook recommend loaded squats be done with toes turned out, knees pointed out and knees tracking toes?
The Skull Beel comes from the kids at:
http://www.ironskullfitness.com
I think it balances out the all the extra “pink” stuff in our gym!
kstar
I don’t know about this one…flexion, adduction, and internal rotation is a good way to shear your acetabular labrum. As a matter of fact, flexion, adduction, and IR is the FAI (femoral acetabular impingement) test! You’re asking for trouble on this mob.
Hey GD,
If it feels sketchy by all means don’t do it.
You aren’t accounting however, for the approximation at the joint or the distraction with the band. What you are adovcating I think, is that capsular patterning is permanent? Be cool, trust yourself.
Kstar
So do you see capsular pattern as like an adhesive capsulitis Kstarr? Just wondering as i’ve had a fai debrided in both hips and still have a capsular patterna a year ago. I am finding that your band distractions are the only thing that is starting to increase my capsular pattern which is great news!!
Kelly, I’m confused. Can you – or someone who understands this – give a short explanation in layman’s terms of what you’re talking about here – it seems both important and counter to what we’re taught? I’ve heard you say not to point the toes out (don’t remember the reason) but I’ve never heard not to drive the knees out at the bottom of the squat. What is the reason behind that?
I’m thinking like Randy – what’s wrong with squating with your feet out?
@GD: How would you determine a case of FAI?
I have competed in PL and OL for forty years, the foot out position was popularized by World Champion Mike Bridges, hence the term Bridge’s Flare. I still sqt over 400 as a MW and my thighs turn in as I come out of the bottom. Usually, I am uncomfortable in the medial portion of my left inner thigh, probably a tilted pelvis. I am a splitter in OL with the left leg forward. After todays MOD with the bands and kettlebell, I got off the floor, no discomfort in the inner left thigh, it’s been five hours now, no discomfort. First time in 20 years. Because, of my international travel with OL I have seen many shoeshinners doing the Paleo Squat, Kelly’s stuff works, wade into it, do what you can, adapt to it, when it is uncomfortable try to control your breathing, still uncomfortable, stop. Try again another day.
Thanks KSTAR, Dennis
Thank you again. Doing this right now for 11.5 tomm morning.
scott
Kelly- Thanks for the note I am 20 weeks out of a labral repair and femoroplasty…so I am still a little sensitive to this specific movement (FADIR). I won’t even try it with the joint distraction, I’m way too afraid of it!
Doc- The way to determine a case of FAI is to lie on your back and put your affected leg into FADIR (deep flexion, adduction, and internal rotation). If you feel a grind or pinch, you’ve probably got a case of FAI. If you do, I wish you the best and hope you don’t require the surgery I had 20 weeks ago. Feel free to email me if you’d like.
GD: Can’t see your email-adress. Did you have any trouble/injuries/? caused by your FAI?
The FAI is just something I was born with, and it caused the labral tear. My surgeon shaved down the femoral neck to prevent future impingement and also repaired the labrum. Email is gdontch@hotmail.com if you have anymore questions. Have a good weekend.
Oh that’s very good. I never noticed that before. But if you do a squat in the shower (no, that’s NOT what I’m talking about, pleese…) when the tiles are wet, you can see your foot/feet sliding out to accommodate. If you have this problem. I’m only restricted on the left – which coincidentally (ha) is the leg that “always” gets injured.
I’m with JL. I’ve had a lot of training in biomechanics and assessment, but for some reason the movements of the hip, femur, knees, ankles always throws me for a loop. K- could you expound upon the mechanics at the hip, knee, rotation of the femur in flexion, etc? To me, missing external rotation in a medially rotated knee in a squat makes the most sense, so when you say that it’s because of lack of internal rotation of the femur in flexion, it doesn’t make sense… Thanks!
ap
Hey Guys,
I just started with a patient who is a trainer at CrossFit Central in Austin, and he turned me on to your site this morning. Great stuff! I can already tell that it’s going to improve what I give patients to do outside of my clinic.
A couple things…
1. I actually had the same thought/question as Andy P above, but the way I’m seeing it is this: The feet are externally rotated because it takes the torque off a hip joint that doesn’t have enough internal rotation (as mentioned in the video). However, I don’t get why a lack of internal rotation would be the cause of someone dropping into internal rotation (knee moving medially) at the bottom of the squat? My guess is that this happens more often than not due to lack of external rotator strength/activity in deep hip flexion, OR occasionally due to what I explain below…
2. I treat a lot of ankle sprains (recent and old), and the toe out / duck squat is very common in this population as well. Why? because many ankle sprains that are not properly treated will leave behind an inability to properly dorsiflex the ankle (bring the knees directly over the toes). There is a ‘binding’ on the front side of the ankle, which is somewhat alleviated if the patient points the toes outward for a squat. It allows them to get their knees a little further anteriorly, but just like Kelly explains, this really puts the knees at risk.
Thanks for all you’re doing Kelly.
Just read your comment (#2 section) and it holds very true to me. I broke my ankle 6 years ago and for 5 years following I had terrible ankle mobility, especially where you describe, in the front like its blocking my dorsiflextion. Its only been in this last year that I have started to regain mobility through more activity, and more recently after finding this site. I’m now so close to full ROM and am able to squat more and more comfortably with feet forward as I get the ROM back.
What about people who have a congenital rotation of the tibia? If I lay on my stomach and bend at the knees, my feet are forced to rotate externally.
I think the point is people compensate for lack of internal rotational torque by turning the feet out, but then you are vulnerable because you have unwound your hip and if you are weak in your external rotation, your knee is in a very compromised position. Am I on the right track here k-star, I feel like I’m the only one who sees the point here.
It’s different for different people, I think. My right foot turns out but I am still never in any danger of the valgus knee; in my case, while my IR is by no means perfect, it’s adequate, and I have dorsiflexion issues as Jarod mentions. I think I end up solving the knee danger by rolling onto the side of the foot, which opens up a different can of worms.
In my wife’s case, it’s different. When her foot goes out her knee falls in like it’s on a mission to destroy itself. It’s very frustrating to watch. And her IR is extremely limited. (She gets the best of both worlds – she also has a lot of ankle issues).
I’m but an aspiring DPT, so I’m still not confident I’ve got my head wrapped around the relationship between IR in a position of flexion and abduction (my instinct was to think we’re also externally rotated there in the bottom, for instance, so I’m battling against that notion), but I’m reasonably confident that it’s not the culprit with me… my right hip has better IR than my left, yet it’s the right toe that cheats out. Until this entry got me thinking critically, I always assumed that this was just something that was off in my tib or arch on the right side. I still don’t totally understand where IR comes into play, but I appreciate that this post has me looking at it differently now.
I find myself doing the duck squat more often then I would like. However I am a goaltender in hockey and my interal rotation is hyper mobile. For example. The stretch where you are on your back and feet up on the wall and internally rotating I’m able to put my knee of the leg I’m rotating completely flat on the wall with zero resistance or stretching at all. What would you recommend for a person like myself who ducks squats but has no issues at all with internal rotation.
Thank you in advance,
Mark
I can’t explain why this works technically, but I can testify that it does work! for me anyway! I had a session with Kelly this week and we worked on my squat. Kelly resolved my longtime squat pain in a couple minutes with his pointers that included the correction of keeping the feet straight and pushing the knees out. By doing so, it engaged and activated all the stabilizing muscles creating a strong pain-free squat with full range of motion, that I do not get with my feet out in the duck position. The difference in the way it feels is night and day. You also need to be sure you’re sitting “back” in the squat as opposed to folding forward. It really helps to have him working with you in person on your specific quirks/needs. I think everybody could benefit from workshops by Kelly focusing solely on the squat!! K-Star, as I told you Wednesday, you rock! Thanks again!
Patricia
Ya gots to be kiddin’….. Sure tough to do under load, with feet pointing forward, please take a look at another opinion below here:
Greg Everett wrote:
The first is that we rotate the feet outward to match the direction of the thighs to ensure the knee is hinging soundly rather than twisting. The second is that the individual has flexibility limitations (namely limited ankle dorsiflexion, and/or tight adductors and/or internal hip rotators) and is forced to excessively turn the toes out and roll onto the inside edges of the feet to circumvent normal ankle and hip movement when trying to achieve a deep squat position.
you’ll find it impossible to maintain an extended lumbar spine as the femurs hit the end range of motion against the pelvis. Now take the feet out a bit wider and turn them out a little and notice the feeling in your hips—the femurs will more freely move up in the hips.
Remember our discussion about aligning the feet and the thigh to ensure proper hinging of the knee—this only works if the feet are under the legs. If they’re outside or inside the leg significantly, even with the foot parellel with the thigh, the knee will be forced to rotate. I actually like my lifters’ stance to be very slightly outside directly under the legs—this allows the hips to sit slightly between the thighs to help absorb the force at the bottom of the squat somewhat rather than a more abrupt, jarring stop at the bottom as occurs if the thigh and lower leg are perfectly stacked. But this is an extremely minor deviation and creates insignificant rotation at the knee.
Your’s is the inetllinegt approach to this issue.
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Can anyone explain how you can tear your acl while doing a stationary squat with 5 lb weights? Is this possible?
KStar, are you saying that the most biomechanically correct way to squat is with both feet pointed straight forward? No outward rotation of the feet at all? I just can’t imagine squatting 400 pounds in such a narrow position.