PART I
PART II
PART III
We are living in an epoch. For the the first time in human history, disparate sports, coaches, and athletes are able to share information and best practices. There has been no single larger influence on the field of human performance than the internet. You may think that the best coaches on earth would fight to protect and guard their accumulated knowledge, but reality is far from it. Coaches around the planet are feeding forward their best thinking and concepts to be rigorously tested by literally millions of users. The risk of remaining anonymous is the risk of being irrelevant. The risk of hoarding best practices is the risk of not contributing to the greatest era of human performance ever.
We believe that all good coaches and athletes are working at the limits of their understanding to solve a similar set of problems. To discount new thinking or modifications in technique is a significant error. As coaches we should not be quick to reject out of hand people’s considerable experience and due diligence. We should strive to understand how and why a coach or athlete thinks the way they do. We should evaluate their models and incorporate what we think is valuable.
Show me a better way. I’m in.
Today’s three part episode is our thinking on knee pain and proper knee & hip function during the squat and is our response to the considerable interest in a discussion about squat mechanics that was initiated by Olympic Lifting Coach Bob Takano of Takano Athletics, and former USAW SportsMed Chair, Chiropractor Brendan Murray.
Mike Boyle too
Sweet. Great conversation. Hey turn that phone sideways and you’ll get a widescreen vid to work with (re: the squat video you reference). Thanks for the resource!
Awesome response!
Two questions:
1. Could knees out(er) on the bottom be a good cue for hypermobile athletes to keep a solid hip? I think I can remember a video posted with Kelly where he talks about that. When we have implemented that, our hypermobile kids were able to keep a more stable low back position every time and have not complained about knee pain yet.
2. If you initiate knees out first on a push press/jerk, wouldn’t that be violating the load order principle about whatever joint bends first is loaded the most? The whole time reading the post about knees in (from the original site), I was wondering if the injuries reported from knees out squat was because the athletes were loading the knees first instead of the hips.
I always thought that the argument was in regards to the foot pointing “straight,” not the knees out que. In the example of Max, his feet were not “straight / forward,” they were pointing out and his knees went over his toes (a perfect squat). To allow the knees to track inside of the feet is just plain silly. Even in the second video the explanation of foot straight was actually pointing out, not straight. I don’t think too many people could argue with the photos showed that they were pretty much perfect positions. Nearly all the photos had their feet point out and knees over toes, not straight. So what exactly to you guys does straight feet mean? This is only thing that confuses me.
Until this video I had never heard of a knees out squat, or knees in squat - only a squat with with knees over toes, which involves some abduction and lateral rotation of the femur.
As far as I know, Kelly never recommends a completely straight foot for squatting. “Straight-ish” but not straight. Like 5-10 degrees out is cool or something like that.
I’ve never posted here before, but if I remember correctly you would want the toes pointing between 0 and 15 degrees. While we’re on the topic…
We might see a hundred videos of power lifters or weightlifters squatting with their toes out. Within the parameters of their sports that might make sense, as their sole goal is to put up as much weight as possible. Where toes forward really becomes important is for other athletes, especially those involved in field sports. Playing foot ball duck footed is like having Scarlett Johansson in your bed and being impotent; you might be present and capable of going through the motions, but you’re still not going to perform. In sport it isn’t about who’s the biggest or fastest or strongest (all things that help, mind you), it’s about who is the best/most efficient mover. If your toes are out you aren’t going to be able to cut and jump and land and sprint as efficiently as you would if you had your feet straight. That’s the difference between being a “meh” athlete and an above average athlete right there. If you look at Starrett’s training paradigm, you’ll see that this carries over hugely to the gym. For the gym isn’t just where you get your athletes stronger, faster, and better conditioned, but where you challenge an athlete’s posture and position (using load and metabolic stress) to discover and fix movement deficiencies, because, as we stated earlier, it isn’t the strongest or fastest who wins, it’s the best mover. Therefore it makes sense to train athletes to squat with toes forward.
I am not sure what field sport you are taking note of. In football(soccer) to kick the the ball, the foot is rarely planted straight (maybe while dribbling). It is planted at an angle out. When running in any field game to change direction, faint (I think this is your version of cutting), dummy, or pass (rugby/league) the foot is planted pointing out away from the direction the athlete is changing direction to (feel free to watch some slow motion stuff to see this. I feel pretty confident with this as I was involved with some research regarding reaction time and fainting/change of direction); and I am not talking duck foot. Rarely are any jumping movements involved in field sports landing on two feet and straight. They are almost always on weird angles and still in motion with one foot landing before the other (That does not mean it should not be two feet and straight in training). All that is beside the point anyway. My question was what does feet straight mean. If it means slightly angled out, as you said; and is a great way to squat, why say feet straight? To me, feet straight means just that, straight.
This maybe why there is some confusion with the knees out thing just the same as the feet straight thing. Could simply be a misunderstanding due to the wording and language used.
knees out is not feel out… torque dump feet out… Torque power screw straight feet into floor//
That makes no sense. It probably would if you wrote a complete sentence. I’m being serious, too. I have no idea what you mean.
I’d like to add that squatting is a strength training exercise, not a sports-specific conditioning exercise. The goal with a squat is to get the weight as heavy as possible. If your concern with feet forward because that’s how you jump in your sport, you can address that with jumping conditioning drills. The guy with his feet out squatting 700 lbs will be better at jumping than the guy with a 400, feet-forward squat.
This. Like you said, the paradigm isn’t necessarily about being able to drive the most weight, it’s about grooving universal motor patterns for general athletics. He even states in Supple Leopard that if your goal is to push as much weight in the squat as possible, the sumo stance is the way to go, but if you’re looking to train and buff up a motor pattern that applies to many facets of your athletic performance, a more neutral squat is better.
In American football the best way to block some one is with feet pointed out and weight on the insides of the foot so using duck feet is a drill and an advantage. Sports require certain “skills” outside of perfect anatomical positions. It’s kind of like a fighters stance where the front foot is straight and the back foot is to the side .
5-12
First off, Thanks for the video. Big fan of the Mobility Project. I have learned a lot from you guys and what I learned really led me into the path I’m at in Grad School.
I feel that this video goes against what a lot of the mobilizations you prescribe for people to do, or at least the end range you talk about. Most notably getting the knee out over the foot type of mobilizations. I feel I have heard time and time again from MobWO that you need to mobilize (if you are restricted) to be able to get in a position where your knee is clearly way out for an optimal squat. When I hear “creating external rotation torque at the hip” means knees will go outward if mobility allows it.
http://youtu.be/QBnMjeMYY40
I didn’t see much point to the few mentions of Dan Green and think that his video should be watched by anyone who is interested in this topic as what the “knees in” cue aka Chuanfu squat really is. My question that I’d like to see answered is if valgus coming out of the rock bottom of the squat does no harm on the knees than why does that teach a poor motor program in a jump or cut done above well above parallel (granted the Chuanfu squat is performed correctly where the knees immediately go back out and you finish with your knees in a neutral position. I don’t see how that inward deviation at the bottom of the squat translates towards a motor program teaching knees in during a broad jump or vertical jump (I honestly don’t know though).
I guess I’m confused by the Mel Siff reference on the last video(part 3) saying you should stay the same top to bottom. The Chuanfu squat looks the same top to bottom and changes from the bottom to the top. Does the bench look the same top to bottom or is their not advantages from changing that position to maximize on leverages you have created with different joint positions and objectives? Honest questions.
The guy you called Kendrick Farris is not Kendrick it’s Oscar Chaplin III.
I imagine Kendrick is not very impressed by this…
Look again….
Part II 8 mins 26 seconds in is Oscar Chaplin III, Kendrick does not have tattoo on his delts…
13:21 is definitely Kendrick. That was the only time I heard his name.
Great job! … new reference vids on this very important subject.
Please, for the love of God, keep that camera from moving around without purpose. A wide shot on a tripod works just fine.
Thanks Commenter, I agree. Difficult to absorb the point being made with such a distraction.
This wouldn’t even be an issue or a debate or something that requires clarification if the cue shouted at Crossfit gyms worldwide was “HIP TORQUE!!!!” rather than “knees out!” Just like Kelly said, you can get low with your knees outside the center of the foot even without firing the glutes and abducters and everything. Knees going valgus, arches collapsing, etc. during a squat is simply an indicator of dumped torque. Prioritize hip torque and everything else will fall in line. For me, if someone uses the word “knees” when cuing me at the bottom of a squat, it’s just a distraction from my hip focus.
If you think of the standing leg as what Kelly calls a closed torque system, the system is closed at the foot and rotational load is applied at the hip. Another example of a closed torque system is a screwdriver loaded against a fully tightened screw and a hand trying to tighten it further. If there was a joint in the middle of the shaft of the screw driver with some varying amount of torsional compliance, that would be like the knee of your leg. The straighter the foot, the higher the torque at the hip, but also at the knee, right? So what are the concerns about torque across the knee joint?
Love your point, Marshall!!! Really, really love it!
one thing i think needs to be pointed out, the knees in squat, or the chuanfu squat (he is one of the coaches who has popularised this squat) is not the same as a knees in squat. There is a contraction in the VMOs that brings the knees towards each other slightly but not an uncontrolled knee knocking. i think citing greg glassman as a source is a bit silly as he has no expertise in this field. louie simmonds is a great powerlifting coach for geared lifting but the low bar back squat is a totally different movement to the olympic style back squat. it would be like comparing a snatch deadlift to a powerlifting deadlift, totally different movements and motor patterns. interesting video, but i think further understanding of the ‘other’ style is warranted.
I second the Glassman comment. I don’t understand why CrossFitter’s want to take ideas from geared powerlifting and try to apply them to CrossFIt. The only rationale I see is that they don’t understand what gear even is. Makes me wonder if CrossFit HQ knew what geared lifting was before they contracted Westside for their powerlifting cert.
I would enjoy this series, IF VIMEO WASNT A PEICE OF SHIT, cant load past 10 seconds have refreshed several times. Why dont you use youtube kelly, cheesus
My experience is quite different. Vimeo plays much better for me than YouTube.
Well, in your supple leopard book, you have pictures of yourself demonstrating a squat in the hole with a fairly extreme “knees out” position. Forgive us if what you meant by a “knees out” position isn’t what you have demonstrated in your book, but any lift where the knees don’t go into valgus.
I not 100% sure but I think both Diane and Kelly have unbelievable mobility and their pictures represent the work they’ve done maintaining that kind of flexibility. When Kelly mobs his ankles the amount of rotation he gets is way more than I can get at this time; my knees won’t go as far out without my foot being dragged to a turned out position. Maybe that is why the “knees out” seems so exaggerated.
Also, the tough thing with teaching these concepts by print and video is that the differences visually are subtle. It is hard to see torque being applied if you don’t know what to look for. I see the knees going so excessively wide in the book as a demonstration only. The problem is that people who are still thinking in linear terms, apply it incorrectly.
It seems like they are back-tracking a bit. BaSL and every video I’ve watched on MWod seems to advocate extreme knees out technique.
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Hey Kelly
Get the Greeks showing great technique also!
Pyrros Dimas
Jon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ojp1Q1qZHY
He talks about all those coaches and athletes he worked with and all their achievments and uses this as an argument for his points. Yet all these guys are actually no-names and laughed at outside the USA and in international competitions.
None of the points he makes are viable not just from a scientific standpoint but just by the fact that all these principles never produced successfull athletes in any strength sport, not in olympic lifting and not even in powerlifting.
…………..That was a fantastic troll comment…I think you have shown everyone that u just like wasting time and commenting on something u know nothing about!…No names??…All the pics he showed were pictures of Olympic lifters DURING PROFESSIONAL COMPS!!…DICK!
I’m torn by this - in part I think it’s great that you’re doing so much to try to make your thinking explicit to as many people as possible (some of whom may or may not be being obtuse). The other part of me thinks that it’s absurd that an article by a chiropractor (chiropractic being to healthcare as scientology is to religion, perhaps) and the bandwagon jumping of others, can cause this much fuss - and that those of us that have read the book, followed the ideas, and applied them for ourselves do not need further justification.
Hey assface Chiropractic is a legitimate doctorate degree that requires extensive schooling. You don’t see them making fun of your spatula while you flip burgers do you? Idiot!
Part I
I would agree that people likely need to learn proper running technique, but I think people have been trained to run heel to toe. I don’t know that most people run that way naturally. There is also the footwear issue, the running surface issue, and too much junk mileage to take up a big share of the blame for running injuries.
Part 2
In what part of the squat are those stills? How I understand the “Chuanfu Squat” is that it looks the same until and only for the first moment of drive out of the hole. A still taken at any other moment in a “Chuanfu Squat” would still look like your stills. I wouldn’t be quite so confident based on stills.
I think you are picturing a collapse that is beyond what is being prescribed by those critiquing you. It reminds me of the folks who think Rippetoe is telling people to do a good morning with his “lead with the hips” cue. It seems that, like them, you might want to understand your opponent’s view better before critiquing it.
My understanding is this:
The “Chuanfu Squat” INTENDS to “go back out”. It is: knees out going down, a quick, controlled, and slight shift in on the first moment of drive out of the hole, and then knees back out the rest of the way up. You are not passive at any moment of the squat. It is essentially practicing what happens under heavy load anyway, which will keep it from drifting into a truly dangerous position.
Part 3
Your universal position/pattern theory assumes that one needs to follow the same exact position/pattern for similar, but different tasks. There is certainly some truth to this, but technique of the same exact lift will change just based on the load (like your video of Kristen).
In my mind, it takes more energy to fight what seems practically inevitable with a “knees out at all time” cue. It also may, in fact, make someone more prone to injury because this position/pattern has not been trained. It will also make someone more prone to drift outside of the amount of “knees in” that is safe because after they drift out of the pattern they have trained they have little ability to control the “foreign” position; they are not strong in it.
The elephant in the room that you seem to not want to consider when analyzing the cause of injuries is that maybe a certain amount of injury is inevitable once you get outside of certain load ranges. Elite is obviously not normal, but some would argue that it is unhealthy, or even anti-healthy.
It would seem to me that there is a range rather than a position where you knees are stable and you have good tension everywhere else. It may be simply better to shift between this range under different circumstances and loads. I honestly don’t see how it is avoidable without being very inefficient.
It seems as if you are trying to create a simpler system than possible and that you are letting this drive your conclusions. The trick of coaching is to avoid information overload by dealing with corrections in order of priority, which means a sort of withholding of information for a time, but that doesn’t justify disregarding an aspect of a movement later because there is an amount of nuance that may be confusing. People screw up the squat at every level. I doubt teaching a subtle degree if shifting of the knees is really any more complicated for the lifter that is ready for it than “knees out” is for the newbie.
All that matters is want is healthy/safe and what drive performance the best. How complicated the system needs to be should be driven by this, not some desire to make coaching or learning easier. As simple as possible, but NO simpler.
Thanks for the video.
The article I wrote on this topic explained that we want neutral shins (squat in the same path) or use a two phase squat technique (push the knees out above parallel). The problem with too much external rotation at the bottom of the squat, in Olympic weightlifting, is that it limits depth (You can even see that in the Squat done by Diane). This is why we make some compromises in order to be more efficient in our sport.
Also, as a small critique, the topic of the discussion is knees out (or not) in the squats. No body said to not push the knees out during the pull so I am not sure why you showed so many pulling pictures.
Also, the jumping picture of the guy with insane valgus, no one said you should squat like that either. Valgus AND Varus knees are not optimal mechanics. I think everybody can agree about that.
Oh, and OM, who has ”bad mechanics” just did a 169kg CJ record and came close to 170, beating one of the best 56kg lifter to ever live (Mutlu). He doesnt always have his feet like that, sometimes you gotta save a bar in competition. I am sure Diane can relate to that.
Anyways, thanks for taking the time to post this video. It opens up a venue for future discussions.
Since I can’t edit, I also wanted to add that you have to adapt to everybody because everybody is different. As I said in my article, pushing the knees out when you have bow legs, for instance, does not seem too smart. The cue also has to be task specific (Oly squat vs Powerlifting squat, not the same thing.)
I’m wondering why Kelly insists on demonstrating his squat with a knees-outside-of-toes position, but when he actually squats under heavy weight, he obviously reverts to knees-over-toes or even valgus: http://i.imgur.com/Ciz6RqV.png .
It seems a little disingenuous to pretend that the form demonstrated in the book and other videos without a weight is ideally strong and stable, when he clearly adapts a pretty standard powerlifter stance when he actually has to squat something challenging.
In this case I think it comes down to what the purpose of training the squat is. Kelly seems to advocate his standard squat stance as the ideal for training the squat to enhance general athletics and build strength in motor patterns that map over to similar activities, like jumping and landing.
Clearly, as you said, in the video he was using a powerlifting stance, because he is powerlifting. Dude was trying to max out his squat. This might not be how he lifts every time he squats heavy. Also, pertaining to the fact that he went a little valgus there, I doubt that was intentional, but rather a little technique slip that occurred because he is doing a fairly maximal lift.
>In this case I think it comes down to what the purpose of training the squat is. Kelly seems to advocate his standard squat stance as the ideal for training the squat to enhance general athletics and build strength in motor patterns that map over to similar activities, like jumping and landing.
Well, I understand that argument (which ties in with an argument for high bar and front squatting for general athletics), what I’m questioning is his claim that this “knees out” stance provides greater stability and strength. As we see in the photo I linked, his strongest position appears to be a standard knees over feet to slightly valgus position.
What I’m driving at is that he’s demonstrated the flexibility to squat in his textbook knees-out position (it’s his textbook!), however when he steps under a bar for a close-to-1RM lift, he reverts to squatting the way pretty much everyone else squats under a heavy load, which isn’t what he’s preaching as the strongest position.
Becoming a Supple Leopard. Page 82.
Starrett clearly explains that if you are driving to drive the most weight possible with a squat, the wide stance is your friend. If you are using the squat as a general athletic training tool, you need a stance that is more universal, with a pattern that applies to other movements.
Much of this debate is the result of the majority of athletes and fitness enthusiasts having a poor appreciation for the implications of motor programming. What are you squatting for, and how are you going to express that in your strength work? That is how you will decide your default stance.
It’s also worth clarifying that “knees out” does not equate to knees outside the feet. That’s just what happens when you are mad supple and express full hip external rotation in a more neutral stance.
Like they said in the video, “knees out” means “not knees in”. It’s not “knees outside the feet”. All other things biomechanically sound, they can, but they don’t necessarily have to.
I think a lot of the people posting on this video are missing the the fact that Kelly did not say that this Chaunfu squat is going to blow your knees apart, but he was rather questioning whether it is the best option for performance based on what’s occurring through the rest of the system.
Don’t the results speak for what is best for performance? At the highest level there is a knees in position action.
I agree Keith, I posted this higher up, but even at *his* highest level: http://i.imgur.com/Ciz6RqV.png there’s a knees in position!
He doesn’t need to cherry pick a picture of Xiaojun snatching (and by the way if you want to see how Lu Xiaojun actually squats, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S_e6bFRKi0M#t=109 ) all he has to do is look at his own form.
Let’s take the bias out,
Real conversation is having Bob Takano and Sean Waxman giving their opinion with Kelly. Not having his employees who will most likely agree with him. Between Bob and Sean, who let’s be honest, they have 20 plus years or more of Olympic coaching. Thats a real conversation between professionals and explaining real opinion and not one methodology. Greg Glassmen founded Crossfit as far as I know has never trained a competing Olympic athlete ( I could be wrong). PT never call themselves Doc’s just because you have a doctrite in PT doesn’t make you a Dr. San Frasisco CROSSFIT as far as I know hasn’t produced any athletes at the top level of Crossfit or Olympic lifting. I understand The analysis of this conversation. There is to factors to take here NOVIS and Professional. There are more NOVIS Crossfitters and coaches than there are professional lifters and coaches. Why does this matter? How come Adrian Peterson came back from a sevre knee injury in a year? Because he is a natural and raw athlete with top genetics and has been playing football his whole life. Kendrick Farris been lifting since he was a teen. You can’t make that same argument for a NOVIS who is underdeveloped and maybe can’t get away with what professionals get away with.
A few other things what does squats of knees in about have to do with kids and the army.. Kids are getting injured because parents have them do to many sports and their body are not fully developed to take that kind of loading. And army is different if like you said ankle instability which majority of the army where boots and from a orthotic view what are the chances it messes with a person mechanics when running or doing bootcamp. Service men will tell you the boots are the problem.
Having a doctorate of physical therapy allows you to be referred to as doctor just as much as chiropractors, dentists, podiatrists, PhD’s referring to themselves as doctor. Research shows that PTs diagnose ortho issues than any MD with the exception of ortho specialists and in most states you don’t need to waste time/money going to a physician prior to seeing a pt.
Much of what PTs do is backed by peer reviewed research which cannot be said about at least one of the professions above.
PTs with the dpt can refer to themselves to doctor if they please,
And by the way it’s not major league football. Kelly Starrett in the physio world is a breather. Just because he may have been in the same room or assisted in treating and athlete doesn’t make you experienced. And that study from Dr. Murray the Chiro? Seriously from a chiro? Why don’t you get a valid study from a sports orthopedist doctor.
Great comments. Awesome video. The gem I got from this episode was part 2 11:50 where he talks about dan green and foot stance.
Man, this is one hot debate. The fury in some of these comments is freakin’ palpable.
Great discussion, but I agree with one of the other comments that they should invite Takano and Murray and do a video together to allow each to explain what they mean. Perhaps they will respond to this video. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a lot of common ground between both parties. It is the way it is explained and perhaps the “knees out” cue that is causing the confusion and disagreement. Murray could also explain what knee issues he is seeing in his patients from a physio point a view.
I have watch a lot of videos of top athletes lifting and squatting and most all seem to have knees pointing out for the majority of the movement but I rarely see anybody with their feet perfectly straight. Even Liu Xiaojun, the best Oly lifter in the world right now angles feet out slightly when squatting and appears to do the “knees in, then out” move when coming out of the hole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_e6bFRKi0M Most people all have their feet angled out a little bit even the ones in the examples shown. If your feet are angled out and your knees track the toes it would appear to be “knees out.” Klokov squats with feet slightly turned out and knees in a fairly neutral position aligned with the toes and he definitely doesn’t look like he is forcing his knees out. He is extremely flexible by the way and still doesn’t push knees way out. There is a recent video of him doing Sally Up with Annie T that shows this. Annie T clearly keeps her knees out with mostly straight feet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiDiQIXgyYA (starts at 50secs in)
Perhaps it is what works best for each individual. I realized that my feet seem to want to naturally angle out a little bit when squatting. This allows my knees to track the toes out and seems to reduce my knee pain. Maybe this is due to a mobility problem in my hips, but I think it is very difficult to get the knees out like Kelly and Diane while keeping feet straight as this requires very good mobility. If your average Crossfitter tried to keep “feet straight, screw feet into ground, knees out” it could create rotational forces on the knee that could result in too much stress on the joints and eventual injury. After watching Mobility Wod videos I tried to keep my feet straight, screw feet in and push knees out for awhile but this seemed to be putting too much stress on my knee and I started developing knee pain so I reverted back angling my fee out slightly and the pain went away.
I have never seen more people disagree with some of the most fundamental information. Why is it so hard for everyone to accept that Kelly has forgotten more about the body than they will ever know!!! It’s a shame Kelly even has to waste his time trying to help all of you out with something so BASIC. There is not one counter argument in this page that has one shred of value. It scares me to think some of the people commenting on this page are responsible for managing high stresses on other peoples bodies. Get a grip people.
How so? I have his book, and mostly bought it because it is cheaper than seeing a PT to have questions answered about exercises in different situations, however it was not particularly helpful in that things like “the law of torque” does not make sense and is not explained in an audience friendly, biomechanical way. I see calculus when I think of torque, and this left me hanging, so pardon me if I don’t understand the “basics”. I see the body as a system with series of tension and torque at joints (which is why they are called joints), anything else is a biomechanics discussion and no one ever uses force, moments, etc. to discuss the subject matter. Just other, less specific vernacular that is vague at best.
Well said young ninja!! Just watched their response via to Kelly. They owe Kelly a thanking for quadrupling the number of people who now know them!!
Fantastic haiku. Apropos.
The oxen are slow
But may be eaten thusly
By supple leopards
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I’m an olympic lifter and after Kelly told me that I was shearing my knees by letting them go forward with my toes out, I changed! Now I may get some popliteus problems from overuse, which means I can over use my leg cause I got no patellar tendonitis. It worked for me!
I’ve been following Kelly Starrett for about a month now. I’m just a normal guy doing workouts, and I want to provide one layman’s voice.
I nerd out. I nerded out with Becoming a Supple Leopard. And it communicated poorly that I should keep my knees neutral and that “knees out” was just a coaching cue. To my memory, nowhere does it say that knees should track with the feet or that it should stay neutral. The book emphatically repeats the command of “knees are expressed out.”
So I misread from the book that knees out as far as possible is where the most torque is found. Dumb me. But I’m a layman, I don’t know anything. This book is supposed to work for me. Again, nowhere does the book say that knees should actually be neutral, that knees out is just a coaching cue. And now I come to these videos.
I have hip pain. After a month of following knees-out-Mr. Starrett, my hip joint pops whenever I stand. I’ve been turning my femur as far as it can in my hip joint in order to get my knees out in my squats. I have good mobility in my ankles, and created a super arch in my foot so I can rotate my femur outward, allowing me to “knee out.” And now I see these videos. What the hell?
The book is 400 pages long. It should’ve communicated adequately that knees are supposed to stay neutral, that “knees out” is just a cue.
To me, these videos look like a cop out. Kelly Starrett throws out a bunch of names to validate his miscommunication. It’s disingenuous. He should really just say sorry and make some corrections in the second edition of his book.
And why are Diane Fu and Roop Sihota there? Let them talk. They seem to be keeping Starrett in line here, making sure he doesn’t overemphasize “knees out.” Especially Diane Fu. I like her.
Yeah, I made it personal over the internet. But my hips hurt. It is personal. I thought it was a mobility issue, but now I see that it’s a position and movement issue. I thought it was position and movement first, not coaching cue first. So Dr. Starrett, could you please begin to change the way you communicate regarding this issue please? Could you communicate “knees not in” or “knees neutral” rather than the oversimplified “knees out?”
Eeeeeeasy there, Leopard. I think you might have misinterpreted something.
Yes, they’re saying that knees out is just a coaching cue, insofar as you don’t HAVE to have the knees physically outside of the feet for your squat technique to be strong and valid. Tracking above the foot is totally cool, as long as that’s where you’re finding torque for your given level of ROM. The problem comes when athletes assume the knee has to be out beyond the foot and commit other movement faults (like taking the foot out of neutral) in order to achieve that.
As per what was discussed in the video, as an athlete’s mobility improves, the knee ends up coming out a little further as they screw the foot into the floor.
If you are experiencing hip sketchiness when squatting, maybe there is something else going on. A sumo squat requires a high degree of “knees out”, only with a different foot position, and that technique doesn’t really seem implicated in destroying hips. So then the questions are (a) have you been looking upstream and downstream of the issue to try and solve any overtension issues that might be contributing to your clicky hip pain; and (b) is there something else wrong with your squat?
I do agree with you that the “knees out” thing deserved this clarification, but at the same time its not like Starrett is the first person to use this cue (as was made clear early in the first video). Check out articles on squatting and you’ll see that cue everywhere, and the only clarification you’re likely to get is the same that the Leopard provided: don’t do weird stuff with the rest of the system to achieve it.
I understand Daniel’s confusion, it’s also news to me that “Knees Out” mean’t “Knees Out but not Beyond neutral”, so I re read some sections of the book especially Air Squat Sequence. After looking at the pictures and the text I think it’s pretty clear why confusion exists. Lots of references to pushing and driving your knees out.
Btw: I haven’t had issues with my knees or hips with these cues, in fact they’ve helped me, probably because I’m struggling to get my knees tracking over my toes throughout the squat, so for me the cue is effective, as is almost everything in the book.
You’re right, I did misinterpret something. But that was my point, that it was too easy to misinterpret from the book.
I was too bitchy with my previous post, sorry. Got a little angry there.
I was doing low bar squats. Sumo squat seems to have the torso fairly vertical and feet far out compared to low bar squats. Degree of hip mobility necessary would be different, especially since my torso would be bent forward in a low bar squat. I don’t think comparing the two are fair. My hip mobility’s not great, but it’s okay. And I’m working on it using KStarr’s methods (thanks!).
I do see the “knees out” cue everywhere. But people usually communicate that it’s a cue, that knees should track neutrally. Rippetoe for example.
Listen, I like Kelly Starrett. I’m going to continue to follow his stuff. But in my past 1 month of nerding out, I don’t believe I’ve come across one mention that knees should track neutral. Even in his all inclusive book. He’s usually a good communicator, but on this one, he’s not done so well. And I’m glad that he’s mentioned it here, but irritated that it’s only now that he’s mentioning it.
I hope the clicky hip goes away. It clicks every time I rise from bending over, sitting down, etc. That’s all.
Thanks gang for taking the time out to explain and re-explain in very easy to understand terms. Coaches have been shouting “knees out” for a long time now, not really understanding the underlying reason or mechanics behind it. Similar concept for ballet teachers who force the rotation of the leg from the ankles - lots of collapsed arches, knocked knees on landing a jump and serious knee issues resulting.
I have to admit, when I first started, it took me many months to really feel what Diane and Kelly were talking about. This is what has helped some of my athletes:
1. For coaches - for folks just entering into CrossFit or any other arena of lifting, try putting them on their back. Have them lift on leg straight up to 90 degrees, dorsi flex the foot. Then you push that foot straight down toward the floor (making sure the foot does not rotate out or in) then have the athlete rotate their hip. This will give them a good proprioception of external rotation in the hip and how it creates the tension they are looking for.
2. A lot of athletes start off all loosey goosey and then mid way figure out they need some tension. That’s too late. Cue them to start creating torque before they even move.
(I didn’t have hip pain before, if that’s not clear.)
MWod Crew, I have been watching your videos for some time now. This just reiterates that cueing is specific to 1 athlete and 1 coach. There are so many times that when I am coaching that one athlete will misinterpret another’s for their own. Thank you for laying out more specific generalized cueing for the masses.
I totally understand your point when you talk about training other sub movements during the lifts for specific trained athletes, you example was for the sport of olympic lifting. I am all for symbolizing patterns for carry over for other things. There are so many times where I will reference torso positioning/hip positioning for one thing to carry over for another.
I love what you guys do and I am eager for what is still to come. Thank you for what you do.
Jake Bigelow B.S. CSCS
At the end of the 3rd video Kelly reiterates with his demonstration on Diane that feet straight and knees out is the optimal position. After watching numerous videos of olympic weightlifters squatting including the examples shown in this video, they almost all appear to angle their feet out to some degree when squatting or in the bottom position of the C&J and snatch. The video of Dimas that another person posted shows him keeping feet straight but his knees also don’t track way out.
For me, the confusion lies in foot position during the squat or bottom position of oly lifts, not so much “knees out”. After watching MWod videos where Kelly emphasized feet straight during the squat I started doing this and soon developed pain in my patella and quad tendon on both knees. I had always angled my feet out slight without problems and after reverting back to feet pointed out stance my pain soon went away. It seems like keeping feet straight in the squat stance may create an patella tracking problem or excess twisting force on the knee especially if really trying to screw feet in and force knees out. Perhaps it is a mobility issue that is limiting me from keeping feet straight but all I know is that it was causing me problems. It is also possible that I misinterpreted or was doing it wrong. Everyone is biomechanically different so what works for one person might not work for others. I don’t think allowing feet to angle out a a little is a huge positional fault like Kelly seems to be advocating and many olympic coaches seem to agree. I prefer to look at how the best in the world do it and it looks to me that almost all angle their feet out. If feet are angled out slightly and knees track the angle of the feet it looks like knees are going out when they are simply tracking the angle of the feet. Correct me if I am wrong but feet straight, knees out means knees have to go outside of the foot, which means the knee is no longer tracking the toes. Perhaps this works well for people like Kelly and Diane with very good hip and ankle mobility. I am by no means an expert or trying to prove anybody wrong. I am a huge fan of Kelly and he is an incredible resource and his work has helped me tremendously with my mobility. I find this discussion very interesting and informative and I simply wanted to bring this point up for clarity and discussion.
Upon researching this topic I found an excellent article that Greg Everett wrote a couple years back discussing foot position in the squat that was in response to a video Kelly posted advocating keeping the feet straight which I think might be relevant to this discussion. http://www.catalystathletics.com/articles/article.php?articleID=113
Yeah, I think there needs to be more clarity with this whole squat issue in general, and the foot position thing has been begging that forever.
The way I’ve been understanding it is, in the presence of normal (i.e. awesome) hip and ankle mobility, creating external rotation torque through the leg (screwing your feet into the ground) tends to express itself as knees slightly out when initiated early in the squat, as seems to be desirable to stabilize the early range of motion. Therefore, when you watch Kelly and Diane squat, the knees come outside the feet slightly, but for someone lacking the same range of motion in hip external rotation / abduction this may only result in knees tracking toes, and would be a more common sight, I should think.
What seems to create the most concern with the knees tracking outside of the toes is the potential for dangerous torsion in the knee; however, it seems to me (based on obsessing about whether this squat technique is, in fact, biomechanically safe) like most of this “knees out” business is expressed as forefoot-on-hindfoot supination (the heel tilts inward slightly off of a planted forefoot), which points the knees out without demanding strange mechanics of the knee joint itself. Basically, the hindfoot tracks with the knee, but the forefoot remains planted, allowing the squatter to still maintain a rooted stance.
I think this “feet straight (5-12deg), knees-out” squat represents an ideal Starrett has for a universal athletic squat that applies to many motor patterns, but it doesn’t necessarily carry the idea that all athletes will have that shape available without diliberately working to achieve it. One of the key ideas behind Starrett’s system is using movement as a diagnostic tool, so if an individual has difficulty expressing this squat shape, it indicates key ranges of motion that have been untapped, which in turn indicates and easy way the athlete can boost their resiliency and possibly even their performance, depending.
I would also like to point out that Gray Cook, who is far less of a controversial figure than Kelly Starrett, and is well respected, not only by physical therapists but also many prominent athletic coaches, uses a “feet straight, knees out” squat as part of his Functional Movement Screen (FMS). He admits, in his book “Movement”, that it is meant to be an exaggeration of the squat used for diagnostics, and that an outturn is “usually thought to be the most efficient foot position when squatting with weight”. The terms “usually thought” and “most efficient” are key here, because neither really condemns a straighter foot position as being inherently dangerous. He is, however, unspecific about much of a turn out may be ideal (though weight training is not the purpose of his book).
Cook goes on to say that an outturn of up to 15 degrees will typically allow an individual with moderate limitations to better perform a squat, and here is where I think we get to the real heart of the matter. Starrett has said of all these shapes he advocates that they are something to be achieved, that they are body positions that should be available for an individual to have full expression of clean human movement, and I agree with that. I certainly don’t think that an individual who experiences significant discomfort, loss of performance, or pain when squatting with these idealized mechanics should do so. But I do think one should be able to squat like that, for what it represents if nothing else.
/book
I should add that I’d really like to hear some other opinions on the foot action that I’m interpreting in the squat, as it’s something that I’ve been thinking about for a while but haven’t had a chance to discuss with other professionals. Thoughts?
[The hindfoot-on-forefoot supination part.]
Scott, this is the heart of the debate. It’s not a debate about cueing or whether we should create torque etc, its about the relationship between knee position and foot position. In Supple Leopard (p. 86) and adjacent pages with photos, knees are clearly tracking outside the plane of the foot. Does that relationship inherently lead to PF pain in most individuals? If so, is it due to a specific or common ROM limitation? Are there signficant numbers of successful weightlifters who squat with their knees tracking outside the plane of the foot? Why or why not? I’m sold on KStar’s points about creating better, more stable positions that reinforce good movement patterns. I’m sold on the example photos he uses, who wouldn’t be? but virtually none show knee tracking outside the foot either during the squat, pull or receiving positions.
Informative video. I am now totally sick to my stomach cause your video person can’t stand still. You have a mac, you have a large flat screen TV, please do your viewers a favor and invest in a tripod and a camera that auto focuses. Thanks!
Additional comment is that the toes of all the lifters in your videos and stills are pointed out to some degree. I cannot remember one lifter having feet straight forward as you demonstrate. So, while I agree with other parts of your assessment, I do not agree with toes straight forward in the least. But just my observation, both personal experience and watching tons of video and looking at stills.
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too long; didn’t watch: Youtube videos of every olympic weightlifter ever. Debate solved.
Brilliant descriptions - Thank you MWOD!
Bro Science , go do some kipping pull ups lol
Mockery of the kipping pull-up very clearly indicates your level of understanding. The movement is not inherently flawed. It is just commonly performed with less than ideal technique. It serves a different purpose than a strict pull-up, one more weighted towards becoming a gymnastically competent mover than becoming a strong puller.
Unlearn.
We’re not done talking about this already, are we?
The opponents of the knees out “movement” don’t have much to back up their argument. The cue is spreading like wildfire because it fucking works. Simple. Personally through trial and error Kelly’s principles work. I feel stronger and better in Olympic or power lifting movement. My athletes preform better and are lifting heavier loads. I am not seeing how people are getting there backs hurt using this cue I am seeing the exact opposite. What I am hearing is that individuals have better hip function that is solving back problems.
The problem seems to be that the “knees out” cue has been misinterpreted as “knees must be outside the feet”. In conjunction with the images provided in Supple Leopard (which demonstrate Starrett’s awesome squat mobility), it’s easy to see how a person might make that assumption.
Even though I think it was adequately explained in both Supple Leopard and the mwod, it seems like there needs to be more emphasis on maintaining strong foot positions when utilizing the “knees out” cue. I don’t mean this in terms of how far the feet are angled out, but keeping the foot planted and avoiding a varus fault (squatting on the outside edge of the foot).
I have found that if I cue “knees out” for my beginners, especially in unloaded squats, they tend to go varus while trying to comply. I have to place a lot of emphasis on connecting with the floor, and I’ve found that using “screw your feet into the ground” first, and “knees out” as needed has produced better results.
In the Jim Smits example - his feet seem to be at almost a 45 degree angle rather than stright. I thought that was a recipe for dumping torque. Yet it is described a “perfect squat”. That confuses me.
It’s not that a greater foot turn-out will guarantee an athlete will dump torque (up to a certain degree), but rather it creates an environment where it is much more challenging to create sufficient torque to express high-level movement.
However, in a case where an athlete is missing key ranges of motion (hip, ankle, etc), compensating with a greater turn out may very well allow them to create more force than they would in a more idealized stance. That doesn’t mean that stance is better, just that it is better for that athlete at their current level of basic positional competency. It shows potentially untapped performance.
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Nice video - funny I was practicing the ‘not knees in’ with my max squats (just a beginner so thats 90kg) and found that my knees kept caving in as I rose out of the hole. Then I stumbled onto another argument that the knees should come in slightly so that they are in line with the foot and found that my knees didn’t cave in plus the squat felt easier. Only thing is now I have a hip tweak - like you say, guess I dumped torque and destabilized my hip using the knees in cue. Back to the ‘not knees in’ technique for me!
This whole areguement is an absolute joke. Crossfit is murdering olympic weightlifting techniques and kelly is not helping with his bad advice
Anything done by a mass population, guided by shit coaches, will be murdered. I am sure the developer of Zumba is disgusted about the technique people use to perform their exercise. I am also sure they are not disgusted with their bank balance. I am also pretty sure that USAW, any other Olympic weightlifting organisation, is not disgusted with their rise in membership and larger pool of athletes to choose from (and these athletes have correct technique, which I am sure is all they care about) from the rise of CrossFit.
I will definitely agree that at the moment there seems to be some communication and better squat technique issue from Kelly and his team, among many others, that are not helping squats. However, disgussing being able to generate more torque and less injury (if that indeed is happening but is yet to be proven), is not a waste of time.
I liked this video, the most important thing I took from this is that it’s not necessarily about knees out but trying to spread the floor apart. I’m relatively new, getting my start in CF and moving into Oly lifting, I’ve tried to keep my knees out as far as possible but have noticed it gets me into a weak position. I’ve been more focused on getting my knees out that I forgot what it was all about, creating torque.
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The real problem is that Kelly is so poor at communicating what he is trying to say that a lot of people don’t understand what he is talking about.
Perhaps I’m over-thinking the cue, but what is meant by “screwing your feet into the ground?”
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With so much emphasis on generating ER torque at the hip, I’d like to hear some more discussion on the problems caused by a lack of available IR. You touched on it briefly but without much explaination.
Thanks
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Your name is “Doctor”?
on subject: you can develop more vertical power with knees slightly in.. . it allows you to distribute the weight over the full foot and take off more explosively due to the extra extension of the calf.. look at anyone jumping. the knee always goes in for max take off. It involves forward action though.
You can hurt yourself doing squats like that, but you can also hurt yourself trying to force your knees out.. something most trainers do not understand is that you proper knee position depends a lot on the natural position of your foot in relation to your knee. It is not a perfect parallel for everyone.. What is important is that your shins are vertical (seen from the front of the knee) to the ground and that there is no lateral imbalance.. and that you push through your heels
That said, kids have no business doing weighted squats anyway.. If you are not a power lifter you have no business doing them either. That said, someone training top athletes, or someone aspiring to become a power lifter shouldnt get their advice from some/any internet video..
Kelly, when you say squatting requires internal hip rotation, is that contradicting this whole external rotation idea, or are you saying that external rotation of the femur creates relative internal rotation at the hip?
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Everyone involved in this discussion should take a look at this article:
http://themovementfix.com/the-best-kept-secret-why-people-have-to-squat-differently/
or go to Paul Grilley’s site:
http://www.paulgrilley.com/
When discussing the reasons why we all squat differently we need to consider the underlying bony structure…..all the soft tissue work in the world will not change that.
Thanks Kelly!
Any thoughts on how this article affects squatting.
http://themovementfix.com/the-best-kept-secret-why-people-have-to-squat-differently/
My understanding is no matter how your hips are designed, the objective remains the same engage hip and butt muscles to lift, protect spine with correct bracing sequence.
Is my understanding correct?
The main problem is that in the book, you make reference to shoving the knees out as far as possible! This command when coupled with the pictures in the book, looks, and sounds like you are telling people to do just that! It does not sound like a cue to not have your knees turn in.
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I can turn my feet out and push my knees out, but spread the floor w/ my feet and create the “torque” he is describing, and create the same resistance that he claims is so easy in the third video. The difference is that we have to push outwards in order to engage the outer thighs versus screwing our feet into the ground.
In fact all i need to do is spread the floor w/ my feet to create a stable base at all (w/ my feet turned in). It’s all about engaging the outer thigh (aswell as some others), so i have something to work off of. I don’t even need to “screw” my feet into the ground. Although that’s one way to queue the movement.
Rippetoe teaches spreading the floor.
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Caution may contain nuance!
Made sense to me the first 100 videos but this really clarifies it.
Very interesting video. Thanks a bunch! The only thing I would say negative about it is that the language used seems overly complicated. I can image many international subscribers and fans such as myself struggling to understand what you are trying to teach. Great videos guys, but I look forward to obtaining a level of english that will allow me to fully grasp your teachings.